ANDIE: 

Clearly, you dig this a lot.

DAVID: 

It’s uh, it’s uh, it’s of interest to me. Yes.

ANDIE: 

Yes. So as a person with the world at your feet and all the things you could be doing with your time, what inspires you to give this so much of your time and energy? Why?

DAVID: 

There’s something really that feels at home coming here for a length of time. I was just, before the interview, I was just enjoying, just kind of sitting back at the camp, enjoying the air out here on the Playa, watching the people go by and just relaxing. There’s something great about that. There’s something, I guess it’s a reset, a spiritual nourishing, just a lot of fun with some great friends. It’s many, many things to me, and I certainly enjoy it, and I enjoy contributing to it and adding to people’s enjoyment.

STUART: 

It’s no secret that Burning Man doesn’t make itself. It’s made by people, by all the contributors, all the participants who come together to turn this thing into a cultural movement. 

Now everyone gives a little. Some people give not just their time and their treasure, but their creativity and really put their heart and soul into this. 

Our guest today is one of these people, not just a donor and an artist and an arts advocate and a musician and a theme camp organizer, but also a hard working DPW volunteer with the Man Base Crew. 

I met him years ago when I visited his camp, the Mansonian Institute. You may recognize Mansonian from their colorful whimsical murals hung up off of everything depicting Burning Man history. I think I may have quibbled with him a little bit about, you know, what date, what happened where. It’s kind of my OCD thing. But he was very, very generous about it and very welcoming. And it was only later that I found out that this person, well, he’s kind of famous outside the trash fence as well, as a founding animator, producer, award-winning director of the longest running animated TV show in American history, The Simpsons: David Silverman. 

Now David’s been on the program before. You may remember him singing “Hanukkah in Santa Monica” on our holiday show and accompanying himself on the flaming tuba. We’re still not sure how he did that. 

Andie Grace caught up with him on playa this year for a longer conversation, which also went out live in the moment over the BRC Webcast. And it goes something like this. Here’s Andie Grace talking with David Silverman.

ANDIE: 

We hope that you’ll enjoy spending some time with us for the next hour or so talking to a Burner. Talk about Burners. I mean, let me see if I can remember everything that this gentleman has contributed to here. First of all, let’s say Mansonian Institute. You are on the Man Crew, DPW. You do Tubatron, which we’ll talk about if you’re not familiar, but if you know you know. You were involved with the Black Rock Arts Foundation. I know you contribute as a donor, and so many more wonderful contributions to the world, a creative crown contribution that we’ll talk about as well known as The Simpsons. And you’re my Burner friend. Welcome, David Silverman.

DAVID: 

Thank you, Andie. And thank you Motorbike.

ANDIE: 

We also call you Tubatron, of course.

DAVID: 

Yes. It’s my handle here on the Playa.

It’s great to be here and great to speak to everybody. It’s beautiful, so.

ANDIE: 

We’re having a bluebird year. Knock on wood and all of that, but ya know. The playa still teaches you lessons, right?

DAVID: 

We had challenges building the the Man Base, pavilion. It really was windy, bit dusty has of challenging days, but familiar. Oh yeah, we got it done though. And it’s beautiful.

ANDIE: 

I want to hear more about it specifically, but I think let’s start people off with you telling me: How did you grow up? How did you find your way to Burning Man? Can you do that in seconds to an hour?

DAVID: 

Try to do it really fast. Okay. You wanted me to go all the way back?

ANDIE: 

I would like to know who you are and why, how you came up and you found your way here.

DAVID: 

Fair enough. Well, it all started in Long Island.

ANDIE: 

Long Island.

DAVID: 

…Long Island where I was born over there. But we didn’t grow up there, you see, because my father, he was teaching at a college called the State University College of Long Island: SUCOLI. And he made a slogan, “You may learn it fast or you may learn it slowly, but you learn it good at Old SUCOLI. Anyhow. But he actually got a job as a Professor at the University of Maryland. And so we moved to Maryland just outside of Washington DC and that’s where I grew up. 

My mother was a docent and worked at the National Gallery of Art, which was a good imprinting on my brain. I was always interested in cartooning. I was cartooning since… I’ve been doing the same thing since I was four. I just didn’t stop drawing. So, that, doing Clay Animated Films. University of Maryland, then UCLA Animation Workshop. I graduated from UCLA in 1893 and bounced around various freelance animation and cartooning gigs, starting with actually the Los Angeles Times drawing cartoons for the music critic, Martin Bernheimer.

Yes. Music also plays an element. Playing the tuba, which I picked up late in high school because I was fascinated by music and I was reading musical scores and all that kind of stuff. So I figured I needed to pick up a horn and be a participant, not just an observer. So I did that. I love the sound of the tuba, and it’s kind of funny. So I thought that would be a good fit for me, and that all worked in well because I also, oh, I did this massive caricature of the Washington DC National Symphony Orchestra. I caricatured all 100-some players. And that kind of got people noticing me, particularly the music critic, Martin Bernheimer at the LA Times. I started doing drawings for him. Led to a company called Alfred Publishing. I started illustrating their piano books. Yeah. So I had some interesting things percolating in my career. 

I worked on a film called One Crazy Summer.

ANDIE:

Yep.

And I was sort of at a crossroads at the end of the year. I was like, do I want to stick with animation? Do I want to focus on illustration? So I thought I would take a year off. I’d saved enough to do that, to live for a year mostly, and just focus on drawing, just focus on, “Okay, what’s my style? I’m going to discover my style.” 

And then one of the animators I worked with, became friends with Wes Archer, he had worked for a small company, and it was still a small company then called Klasky-Csupo. And Klasky-Csupo had gotten the contract to do animation for a new show, The Tracey Ullman Show working with Matt Groening. And I was like, “Oh, wow. I love Matt Groening’s work. I’d just love to meet him. That’d be fantastic. Yeah, yeah, you need an animator on that? Okay!” So I’m in.

And that’s how the whole thing started. And it was called The Simpsons and I was oh, that’s very interesting. And oh, I love that. Georgie Pelosi, the color stylist, decided to make them yellow, which I thought was a good call. I actually told her I thought the reason why she did that was because Bart, Lisa and Maggie don’t have a hairline. And she said, “Oh, I hadn’t thought of that.” But I think she unconsciously may have thought of that. Anyhow, that was one of the many brilliant things about the show. Making them yellow was like, I think that’s one of tent poles of its popularity. 

ANDIE: 

Absolutely iconic. 

DAVID: 

Yeah, iconic. Exactly. 

When I look back on it I got to UCLA in 1977 .This was 10 years later in 1987 starting The Simpsons, two years, Tracey Ullman Show, 48 shorts. 1989 we started developing the series, and Wes and I became directors. I designed the opening title sequence, and Wes and I directed episodes the first season. Then other direct people like Rich Moore and Jim Rearden and Mark Kirkland came in, all very proficient and wonderful guys, big careers since then. And they started of The Simpsons, and they liked what I was doing, so they made me Supervising Director, very flattering, and everybody was cool with that. I’ve done a lot of silly, crazy iconic Homer animation.

ANDIE: 

I think on my 30th birthday out here at Burning Man, you drew me a Homer birthday card, as a matter of fact.

DAVID: 

I probably did. Now, the reason why actually why The Simpsons does does relate to Burning Man because one of our best Producer, Exec Producer / Writers, George Meyer, really funny guy, he would take me to Grateful Dead concerts. He was a big deadhead, a bid deadhead. And he told me he went to Burning Man in 1897, and he told me “Of all the people I knew that work in The Simpsons, I think you would really like this.” And I thought, “Oh, wow.” And then I read the article in WIRED and I was interested in going, but I just couldn’t figure it out. 

Also, around the same time I had gotten a call, 1996, nine years on The Simpsons, I got a call from Dreamworks, and I was thinking, “Well, the Simpsons can’t last forever!” 

ANDIE: 

Mm-hmm…

DAVID: 

That’s a prediction that did not come true.

ANDIE: 

One thing that did not come true for The Simpsons.

DAVID: 

Yes, exactly. So yeah, it was an interesting opportunity to direct an animated feature. So I went to Dreamworks and I worked on the Road to El Dorado. Then I left Dreamworks because I literally got a call from Steve Jobs to go to Pixar. How I got on Steve Jobs’ radar? Well, I’ll tell you, Rich Appel was a Simpson writer who wrote this episode that I directed called Mother Simpson. It was his first episode, and he named Mother Simpson after his wife, Mona Simpson, the writer and Steve Jobs’ sister. So he got Steve’s attention to me. I got to Pixar, and was a co-director of Monsters, Inc. 

By the way, you probably know there’s a number of Pixarians who are Burners. 

ANDIE: 

Absolutely.

DAVID: 

Yeah. And there was another guy there actually who was from The Simpsons, Kevin O’Brien, who also was at Pixar at this point. I knew him from The Simpsons. He’s a board artist at Pixar. He told me he had gone to Burning Man. I was like, “Okay, now I’m really interested.” 

So what happened is a very good friend of mine, his, at the time, fiance, then they got married, was involved in a documentary being made called Confessions of a Burning Man. Paul Barnett was a co-director and

ANDIE: 

Unsu Lee

DAVID:

Unsu Lee, yes. And they had a production house basically nearby where I lived. I lived in San Francisco at the time, I was still at Pixar. So I went to their house and I was talking to Paul and I said, “Well, do you want another cameraman? I mean, I have a video camera.” And he said, “Well, David, that’d be fantastic.” So that was great. It was in 2001 and I was like, “Oh, great. I’m finally going to Burning Man!” 

And I remember coming to Burning Man and we came early in the morning. It was like six in the morning, and they were working on their maze, one of those, what did you call that sort of maze? 

ANDIE: 

A labyrinth. 

DAVID:
A labyrinth, yes. I’m sorry. And I just started working on it, and the weather was actually quite nice, at least for the first day!

ANDIE: 

That’s right. They did an art piece as a part of showing what the characters would go through in the film. 

DAVID: 

Yeah, they had the characters working on an art piece. So we were working helping them with that. And it was a great time. I had a great experience. Because we were doing the documentary we were just kind of thrown in to like, “Okay, go here. Do this. Go here. Do this.” 

And that’s where you and I met, and I met Larry for the first time which was wonderful. And we had a great interview with Larry, and I was incredibly impressed with his, just the way he phrased things and how interesting he was in an interview. Everything he said was interesting and on point and pithy. So that’s how the whole thing started.

ANDIE: 

That’s how you found Burning Man. 

DAVID: 

That’s how I found Burning Man. And it was a very dusty year. I still think it’s the dustiest year I’ve ever had.

ANDIE: 

It was pretty dusty that year. You’re not wrong. 

DAVID: 

But it didn’t matter. Dusty and my hands were crinkly and all that sort of stuff. And it’s like, I don’t care. I’m coming here. And then we went back for, believe it or not, ladies and gentlemen, reshoots. “Yeah, no, this documentary all takes place in 2001…”

ANDIE:

Sort of.

DAVID: 

Sort of. 

ANDIE: 

The suspension of disbelief is what we got.

DAVID: 

Exactly. Even documentaries, well, nevermind. And 2002 was beautiful. The weather was fantastic the entire time. So I just said, okay, this further cements my interest in going to Burning Man. I figured it’s like, what will the weather be? You don’t know. But it could be great, could be dusty, I don’t care.

ANDIE: 

But there’s going to Burning Man and then there’s diving in head first. And so what was the first way that you found yourself getting more involved?

DAVID: 

When I got to Pixar. I actually had a growth in my playing of the Tuba because we formed a band at Pixar, kind of in the tradition of the Firehouse Five Plus Two band that was formed out of the Disney animators back in the day with some of the nine old men of Disney, particularly Ward Kimball trombone, Frank Thomas piano. And Pete Doctor is a fantastic musician, Bob Peterson on playing trumpet, and so forth. And we had our band called the War Room Rascals

ANDIE:

Uh huh.

DAVID: 

…because we practiced in the story room, which we also called the War Room. And Bud Lucky, this great old animator and great banjo player, songwriter, he helped me learn how to play traditional jazz tuba without having to have music in front of me. So that was a great growth in my musical abilities. And then I discovered I was looking for in the first two times, I didn’t see that I was looking for the Burning Band. And I finally ran into…

ANDIE:

The Burning Band.

Yeah, the Burning Band. And I ran into the Burning Band in 2003, my third time out here. The Burning Band had been around since ‘96 so it’s becoming established. And that started my, a growth in my musical journey. So I tie in my experiences at Burning Man with my musical growth.

Then I got involved with the band that the Burning Band came out of in the Bay Area called the Los Trancos Woods Community Marching Band. So I started growing interest in friends and so forth. 

Also, the second year I went out, I went out with a friend of mine, Anna Maltese, who’s a former Simpsons animator and a fantastic fire performer. She doesn’t do it as much anymore, but she’s also a fantastic Kung Fu martial artist, and I think included that into her fire performance proclivity.

But that got me inspired to think about, well, maybe I can do something with the tuba. And I thought at first attaching wicking, fire wicking to the top of the bell of the sousaphone. And I was thinking, I wonder if there’s something we could do with propane. I don’t know anything about propane, but maybe there’s a way to rig a valve that regulates the flow. So every time I press it, a flame could jump. And yes, Anna connected me to somebody who had the ability, this contractor who could do that. And yeah, we put it together finally. And by 2005, now my fifth time at Burning Man, I had a flaming tuba! You know, I thought, well, this will be fun. And I didn’t expect how much people would like it. I mean, I just thought…

ANDIE: 

They really talk about it. 

DAVID: 

They really talk about it! Not only that, I remember there was one time I just assumed at nighttime this is what it was going to be, and I would perform it at nighttime. And one time I was practicing it in the daytime just to make sure everything was working. And then everybody was coming around me taking pictures, and I said, okay, it works in the daytime too. So that’s how that all started. 

And it was great too, because I think even that year in 2005 I think we were in the inner circle with the fire performers play prior to the Man Burn. And that was a great experience. I did that for a number of years until they decided that liquid propane maybe is not the best thing to have in the inner fire circle. 

ANDIE: 

That makes sense. 

DAVID: 

That makes sense. Okay. Okay, fine. I mean, we’re sitting there. Yeah, there’s fireworks flying all around. Maybe it wouldn’t be so cool if it hit the propane tank, but anyhow, so that’s how that aspect started.

ANDIE: 

Well, we love seeing that you bring it back every single year.

DAVID: 

Yeah, it’s a fun thing. Actually. I’m going to be performing it with the Black Rock Philharmonic, and the conductor Eric also has a flaming tuba!

ANDIE: 

Really?

DAVID:

Yeah. 

ANDIE: 

Two in one place. Amazing.

DAVID: 

And there’s a flaming trumpet, and we’re going to play one song with the fire on Thursday at six.

ANDIE: 

Okay. Where?

DAVID: 

Well, I don’t know.

ANDIE: 

Well, I hope you wrote it down.

DAVID: 

It’s somewhere around, uh, it’s off of the Man, the one o’clock-ish area. Something like that. 

ANDIE: 

Got it.

DAVID: 

Somewhere on the playa. 

ANDIE: 

Well then what about Mansonian? I’m hoping I’m going through these things in the right order of involvement.

DAVID: 

You know what’s interesting? It all kind of happened fairly quickly. Some, I mean, in some respects quickly.

ANDIE: 

Tell us about the Mansonian Institute.

DAVID: 

Right. So going back to my friend Paul Barnett, I was looking for a camp to be with in 2007. Even though I was directing Simpsons movie starting 2006, I managed to be able to go to Burning Man in 2006, which is great. And Paul Barnett connected me to Melissa… 

ANDIE: 

Alexander?

DAVID: 

Alexander, yes, from Exploratorium. And Melissa was camping with Joe Olivier’s camp Mansonian, which actually he started the year prior which was I guess an art support camp. And so that’s when I met Joe. He had this timeline as part of the Manson, which he sort of made it sort of the Man-centric point of history. 

Joe has been on the Man Crew for a long time, primarily as a chef. He’s a terrific cook. He’s actually a very talented engineer, and knows a lot about everything, tools and so forth. And I was surprised he wasn’t building because he’s certainly capable. Nope. He’s cooking food because he’s from Louisiana and he really knows how to cook. So that’s my first time at the Mansonian in 2007. 

And then in 2011 he asked me if I would like to take over the timeline because I was doing all these…

ANDIE: 

all your fun graphics

DAVID: 

the graphics, right, the stickers, and printing up these stickers every year, and he saw the stickers and the humor involved in them. And so, yeah, my adolescent Mad Magazine brain was kind of interested in doing something with the timeline, factual and comical, visual. And that’s how the whole thing started. 

And I kind of came up with this concept of the Curator Man, using the Man’s head in this sort of suit-and-tie Mickey Mouse like gloves, body in different orientations, different topics, different memes and so forth. And that’s where the timeline started. 

And then we became a theme camp and it was like, okay, well we’re a theme camp. I can’t just have a timeline and a few random banner posters. We actually have to make a presentation, something where Placement would say, “Oh, that’s good,” as opposed to “Get outta here, you’re no theme camp. Yeah, you know. Pedal yer papers. So that’s how that started. 

And then I started arranging and trying to figure out how to design it. That’s when I got very good at ETM and connectors and bungees. Those are my three elements, ladies and gentlemen. Those are my tools! (and a screwdriver to tighten things.) And that’s how that whole thing started. 

And it became more elaborate. We decided, oh, we need a museum annex where we can put artifacts in there. And yeah, right from that.

ANDIE: 

Okay, that’s a lot of involvement already. And then…

DAVID: 

Right. Oh, right. But wait. There’s more. 

ANDIE: 

But, wait. There’s more.

DAVID: 

“How much would you pay now?”

So Joe, remember Joe Olivier?

ANDIE: 

Joe Olivier

DAVID: 

Back somewhere in 2022, and I can’t remember if he… He and Kimba. I don’t know if Kimba asked him. 

ANDIE: 

Right? Kimba the Project Manager of the Man Base.

DAVID: 

The Man Base, right.

DAVID:

calls me and says “Would you be interested in working on building the Man?” And I think I answered, “Let me YES think about it.” And that’s how that all started. And so I went my first year in May of 2022 at the Work Ranch. The Work Ranch is a 25 minute drive.

ANDIE: 

12 miles away or something.

DAVID: 

Right. Just past the Fly Ranch where the Geyser is. I met all these great people. We become very good friends with everybody. It was a wonderful time. And I also was able to come a little earlier to be a volunteer on the Man Pavilion, which, you know, what the Man Base has evolved into, and work on that for a little bit. 

And then, in ‘23 it was really interesting because that was the earliest so far that have come to Burning Man, again, working on building the Man at Work Ranch in April, and then coming to the Playa like August 8th or August 9th or something like that, very early to be a volunteer contributor to the Man Pavilion. And same thing this year.

ANDIE: 

Clearly you dig this a lot.

DAVID: 

It’s uh, it’s uh, it’s of interest to me. Yes.

ANDIE: 

Yes. As a person with the world at your feet and all the things you could be doing with your time, what inspires you to give this so much of your time and energy? Why?

DAVID: 

There’s something really that feels at home coming here for a length of time. I was just, before the interview, I was just enjoying just kind of sitting back at the camp, enjoying the air out here on the Playa, watching the people go by and just relaxing. There’s something great about that. There’s something, I guess it’s a reset, a spiritual nourishing, just a lot of fun with some great friends. It’s many, many things to me, and I certainly enjoy it, and I enjoy contributing to it and adding to people’s enjoyment.

It’s the thing that I think is great. If you do something at Burning Man, which is not just observing, which is great too. I love to be a spectator as well, because there are people who are presenting things that they want spectators to enjoy. But being both is quite fun. Do your bit and make people enjoy, or you add something to the mosaic of Burning Man, and then you go and enjoy watching that mosaic.

ANDIE: 

Exactly. The ‘No Spectators’ thing, we don’t say as much anymore, although it is a core sort of value because of course, if you put on a show and there’s no spectators, what fun is that? But involve yourself and immerse yourself.

DAVID: 

You gotta have an audience. 

ANDIE: 

Exactly. There’s nothing wrong with watching what everybody worked so hard to bring together here, right? 

So the vision of Burning Man, as you understood it when you first showed up, how has that evolved over time in your mind? 

DAVID: 

I always think that the vision of Burning Man that I have, you know, the journeys that you can have, I think they still ring true. It’s just up to you to find it, to look for it. I don’t know if it’s harder to find it or I don’t think it is. I mean, there’s so many things you can do that could be spiritually uplifting. There’s so many things you could do that are just sort of raucous and carousing and carnival. It’s like every chakra is out here. You just pick the chakra you want to engage in. It’s all there. 

And, you know, as we’re speaking, I’m looking at this, of course, the map of Burning Man, and I’ve always imagined myself, well, there’s all a Burning Man, and I’m just one person just sort of moving through, making a path, going this way and that way. And that’s all we are doing, right? We’re just sort of meandering through. We have intent, we don’t have intent, and so forth.

ANDIE: 

Molecules bouncing around an atom. Yeah.

DAVID: 

And without planning things to this still this day I said, well, it is a lot of fun just coming to a random camp that has a bar set up and you start talking to people and they can be very interesting. And you get inspired by that or, you know, well, maybe it’s not so interesting. So you… 

ANDIE: 

walk 20 feet…

DAVID: 

You find something else interesting. And that’s the other great thing I love about that. You walk and you meet people and they’re doing interesting things and you get inspired. That’s an interesting thing. Maybe I’ll do something like that. Last night we did that, somebody had this cool motorized bathtub, these small little…

ANDIE: 

That sounds amazing.

DAVID: 

It’s amazing. And so a friend of mine is inspired not to copy that, but just like, well, maybe I should come up with some sort of small motorized… That’s the thing. That’s the sort of stuff that happens. You get inspired by that sort of thing and you see something and say, well stop that. I want to do that, but that inspires me to do this. The

ANDIE: 

Possibilities.

DAVID: 

The possibilities, yes.

ANDIE: 

Permission to do it if you want to.

DAVID: 

And then we started talking about, because we do have, there’s an art car associated with the Mansonian, but we thought, well, maybe we might want to think about, maybe we can adjust what this art car is and actually relate it more to what the Mansonian is because currently it’s not particularly connected. 

ANDIE: 

Thematically speaking.

DAVID: 

Thematically speaking, and not that’s a problem. But at the same time, it’s like, well, if we have the time and the resources, maybe we should think about that and connecting it. So when it travels around and it has something relating to what the Mansonian is, people say, “Oh, okay.” Maybe they’ll follow us back or something. 

So it’s that sort of thing. Or all the stickers that I’ve made. And now we hand them out at the timeline. A number of people work comically as docents and the tour guides to the timeline handing out various stickers. So not only the annual new sticker I have for the theme, but the ones from the past that we basically read.

ANDIE: 

Collect them all.

DAVID: 

Collect them all. Collect the whole set.

ANDIE: 

I love it. 

Have I missed anything about your contributions to this culture that when I ask you what are you most proud of about your time at Burning Man?

DAVID: 

I’m very happy that things that I’ve done have made some impact or enjoyment for people because I just did them because they were fun. I thought this would be fun for me.

ANDIE: 

So it wasn’t hard to find that inspiration?

DAVID: 

No. And people ask me, “Where did you get the idea for the flaming tuba?” And I said, “I don’t know. I just thought it was around already. Not that I’d seen it before, but it just seemed kind of obvious. It was just laying on the floor. No one else picked it up. Okay.”

ANDIE: 

That’s when you know it’s good. I am but a vessel.

DAVID: 

You’d say somebody tapping your shoulder and say, Hey, do that. Okay, I’ll do it. 

And then I started printing up my own stickers to one point. I said, What am I doing? I should have this done professionally. “What am I? Some idiot?” And people are enjoying that. And then when Joe of course asked me, I says, oh, I just put two and two together. I’m already doing these stickers now. The timeline is one gigantic sticker banner and an extension of that. So, and people enjoy that.

ANDIE: 

Another thing people enjoyed the heck out of and talk about all the time is The Simpsons episode of Burning Man. I’d love to hear where that came from. How many… People always wonder how… “They must work on Burning… These people must be Burners.” Well, obviously. Tell me about that episode.

DAVID: 

From the animation side, there are many people who are Burners and who have been coming. And other than George Meyer, I don’t think anybody from the writing side that I’m aware of had gone to Burning Man, and certainly not the writer, Carolyn Omine, who wrote the episode. However, she was very interested knowing that I had been there and what I could tell her about it, and also working with other people on the animation side who had gone there and things that they could bring to the situation. And we told her about the cupcake wheels and things like that. 

LISA SIMPSON: 

A world of anarchic free expression. I’m home!

HOMER SIMPSON: 

Cars shaped like cupcakes. I’m home!

DAVID: 

And it was very funny because I was trying to tell, because the legal said, “Well, this is too close to the original.” I said, “Well, no, they don’t care. They don’t care. They won’t sue you.” Dwayne Flatmo would love it if we just replicate El Pulpo Mechanico as is. And they said, “Oh no, you gotta… Okay, we’ll adjust it.”

CARTOON:

Approach the Burning Man, I mean Blazing Guy!

ANDIE: 

And Tubatron was in there too.

DAVID: 

Yes. And, by the way, no, I had nothing to do… 

ANDIE: 

Not your idea.

DAVID: 

Not my idea. No. Carolyn Omine put me in there and it was great because they had me play, I brought my actual flaming tuba sans propane.

ANDIE: 

I was going to say, did you light up so it sounded okay?

DAVID: 

I think they said we wanted that sort of the authentic ratty sound. So I played the tuba before I did my own voice for it, for the few words that I had.

ANDIE: 

I thought that was you.

DAVID: 

Yeah, that was me, which was kind of cool. And they made my visage and in a Simpson form. 

ANDIE: 

Yes, they did. 

DAVID: 

And the more amazing thing, I think it was around that same time, 2014 The Simpsons took over the Hollywood Bowl for the final weekend in September for three shows. And I remember getting a call to do some artwork for an early flyer, and was told at the time that James L. Brooks was wondering if the band that I was in at the time, Vaud and the Villains, great band. Vaud and the Villains play music for the Hollywood Bowl. “And he was also wondering for you to play the flaming tuba at the Hollywood Bowl.” And I thought, “Sure, but that’s not going to happen. That’s not going to happen a million years.” 

Well, it happened. 

ANDIE: 

Amazing. 

DAVID: 

That was amazing to me because to me it was like all three parts of my world coming together. The Simpsons and the art, the Burning Man aspect of Flaming Tuba, and music. 

So that’s a good moment. 

ANDIE: 

Wonderful. 

DAVID: 

And by the way, that was a great moment connected on The Simpsons, and I have Burning Man to thank for it.

Sometimes it’s a good idea to do certain things, not knowing how you’re going to end up.

ANDIE: 

I think that’s the best philosophy of all.

People talk a lot about feeling like Burning Man is transformative. You learn something about yourself, you go through some kind of transformation coming here. Do you think so? And do you think people take it home with him?

DAVID: 

I would think so. I certainly learned to, I try to be a better person. Working with people, working people at the camp, and taking that home with me, working back as a director and just working people at the job in general and their interactions with people. Trying to think about that. Listening more, being understanding more and accepting. I think to me that that’s an aspect of Burning Man. It is a challenging environment and that’s not a bad thing. It’s a damn stupid place to host a party. But the challenge of the environment makes a party worth it. There’s a worth wildness of the party and the absurdity of having a party in this world.

ANDIE: 

It deepens it quite a bit.

DAVID: 

It does. It makes it a different sort of thing. And you can sort of see that, because I enjoy the Decompression parties, but it doesn’t feel the same that, okay, oh, we’re doing this in the city. Alright, well,

ANDIE: 

Have you visited any regional events?

DAVID: 

Yes. Yes. Not lately, but I’ve done a number of them certainly earlier on, and I’ve enjoyed them. Some still exist, some have gone.

ANDIE: 

They evolve too, right?

DAVID: 

Yeah. They ebb and flow and so forth. But those have been very fun. And I’d like to do more regionals. I’d love to travel. All over the world there are regionals.

ANDIE: 

Right? There are, and I heard this year that someone is here who’s planning to organize one in India next year. There are very few places we don’t have one. And to me, Burning Man is a way of looking at life. It’s not just this thing. This is Black Rock City where Burning Man happens, but it can happen in lots of other places too. This is kind of the ultimate expression thereof, I suppose.

DAVID: 

And yeah, it can happen in any environment. I’m interested in the Kiwi Burn. 

ANDIE: 

Indeed. They’ve been doing that for a while and what a place to see. 

From your perspective, you’ve got some pretty neat and unique and very immersed ways that you can see Burning Man from working on building the Man itself, being on the streets and just interacting with who knows who as they pass you. And then the structure of your theme camp and then working on organizations and talking about it in the outside world. What’s your favorite and your least favorite ways that Burning Man has changed?

DAVID: 

That’s very interesting. I don’t dwell on that so much with the changing, I guess that’s the thing. I mean, because it’s inevitable. You can’t stop things from changing. They’re going to change. I think you remember the line of Larry Harvey, Burning Man’s like your birthday. Every year it’s the same and every year it’s different.” And you just can’t change how something is, and you certainly can’t change the technology that people are going to utilize to live in this space. So yes, one of the things that’s happened, it’s a great more abundance of electric light thanks to the invention of LED and small power supplies. So that’s an inevitable change. And it’s like, well, you call it, oh, I missed it when it was so forth, so but well, this is how it’s going to go. People need light. They need to show that they don’t want to get run over

ANDIE: 

Time marches on, and you can choose to be unhappy about it in your response or…

DAVID: 

Yeah, you want to be a Luddite, that’s fine. People have tried that in the past. It didn’t work out.

ANDIE: 

What’s your favorite way it’s changed?

DAVID: 

I think in some ways because of that, some things are a little easier to get together to create and to build. I think people have, because of aspects of technology that have changed, the materials and supplies that they need to put things together has enabled them. I’m sure the negative aspect that people have is that once upon a time, the first time you had that, when you go here, you were basically cut off. You could not contact anybody except by basically driving out and took to make a call on the landline.

ANDIE: 

Oh, nobody would believe us, or them, I wasn’t even working here then. When the news of Lady Diana dying came to the Playa, people didn’t believe it because there was no way to verify it. And it sounded like a playa rumor.

DAVID: 

Oh, that’s interesting. Yeah. In the Confessions of a Burning Man, they show them going off playa, I think to Empire, to make a phone call. 

ANDIE: 

Yes. All the way to the phone booth an Empire, right!

DAVID: 

Right. Because yeah, I remember when you’re driving there, I think somewhere around Nixon, there was a bit of a signal, but that was it. 

ANDIE: 

People would bring satellite phones occasionally, but you didn’t find them. 

DAVID: 

But now people are bringing StarLinks. By the way, they say, “Oh, isn’t that too bad?” I said, yeah, but on the other hand, I can get work done here and be at Burning Man.

ANDIE: 

You can come, as opposed to saying, I can’t go home. Or people who have family at home they need maybe news from. It’s not a bad way that time marches on. Is it bad if we’re all staring at our phones instead of interacting with each other? You can certainly make that case.

DAVID: 

Yes, that is the case. And the thing that I was doing, by the way, was working on the Man and also working on finishing something on The Simpsons is trying to minimize that. Just sort of see if I can concentrate it into one meeting or something like that; cover everything and then sort of glance at the phone and send messages, and not interrupt my ability working on the Man Base.

ANDIE:

Like many things that we do here, we can take it out of sight and it’s not necessarily socially acceptable to sit there and stare at our phones all day in Black Rock City. But it is nice to be able to stay in touch so you can continue to participate.

DAVID: 

Yeah. I think maybe one of the things I’ll take away from Burning Man is: Yes, this is maybe not as good as this used to be or so forth, but why not look on the upside? It still exists, still can go to it. You can still find what you liked the first time you went to Burning Man. It hasn’t really gone away. It’s different to be sure, but really the thing that makes it fun, people coming to Burning Man with enthusiasm, wonderment, and creativity, that hasn’t changed. So maybe just focus on that. And the things that “Back in my day…” you can just sort of put the side and you say, yeah, we’ll be saying that forever. 

ANDIE: 

Something ruins Burning Man every year, right?

DAVID: 

Oh yes. It was always better last year. 

ANDIE: 

It was better last year. I like “It was better next year.”

DAVID: 

It was better next year!

ANDIE: 

That’s my favorite way to say it.

DAVID: 

Just wait until next year.

ANDIE: 

Exactly. 

What do you think is ahead? What is the biggest challenge in your mind that 

Burning Man faces and what’s the future look?

DAVID: 

I don’t know. It is sort of like maybe the challenges of everything. What will the next generation think about these things? What’s their perspective on going to venues in general? Even different venues have been having difficulty finding audiences.

ANDIE: 

We’re not the only event that is experiencing lower ticket sales than expected this year.

DAVID: 

Right. Coachella, which has always been sold out long before Burning Man was sold out. 

ANDIE: 

There are some music festivals that have just decided not to happen this year because they’re undersold, so.

DAVID: 

Right. Well, that was the thing. You know, I was reading those articles prior to Burning Man. I’m thinking how it might affect Burning Man, but there was a whole article about several European music festivals that just said, “Well, we’re not going to hold it.” 

ANDIE: 

It’s hard. 

DAVID: 

Yeah.

ANDIE: 

But how was that feeling for you on the streets? How’s that playing out, this population that I think I saw earlier was 60 something?

DAVID: 

Yeah, something. I don’t know. I can’t tell the difference.

ANDIE: 

Me neither. 

DAVID: 

Another thing Larry said to me once, which I thought was great, he said, “Yeah, there might be 60,000 people at Burning Man, but you’re not going to meet them all.”

ANDIE: 

There’s a hundred faces around me right now, maybe.

DAVID: 

Yeah, if you haven’t been here: it’s big. It’s a really big place. So it may seem like a lot of people, but you go to any sporting event, you have a similar amount of people crammed into the stadium. So that’s a different aspect. We’re not all crammed into a stadium here.

ANDIE: 

You can say that the answer to this is, I don’t know, maybe it doesn’t, but why does Burning Man matter in the world?

DAVID: 

Well, it certainly has added an aspect of people to engage in a conversation about something and whether they like it or they hate it. And there’s quite a spectrum. You see people, a lot of people that hate it. Really, it bugs them somehow. Which is funny because it’s really for all the fuss that people who will complain about it, it’s like, well, there are certainly worse things in the world happening that you can complain about from every aspect from either cultural or environmental. But it does start a conversation and it does create an exchange of thought and ideas and philosophy. So that’s a positive thing.

ANDIE: 

I like that a lot.

Is there anything about your Burning Man experience that I haven’t asked you about yet?

DAVID: 

I don’t think so. I think we covered a lot. What time is it? 

ANDIE: 

It’s getting to be about time for us to wrap it up. Well, I would love to give you the opportunity to say anything else people should know about.

DAVID: 

Well, I was going to say that because today I do have a performance with the Black Rock Philharmonic.

ANDIE: 

Beautiful. 

DAVID: 

…at 4:30 at Center Camp. 

ANDIE: 

I heard we added a fourth symphonic orchestra this year in the city, yet another organized orchestra: the Pops and the Philharmonic and the Symphony.

DAVID: 

Yeah. I think we’re rivaling the number of symphonies in New York City and Tokyo.

ANDIE: 

With a lot less drama!

DAVID: 

A lot less drama. Yeah, that’s a great thing. There are a lot of musicians that come to Burning Man, which is terrific.

ANDIE: 

I love it too. I mean, we have this reputation of the people that come and love the electronic music that is certainly here and bounces through the ground all the time. But seeing you play tuba, seeing analog around every corner is one of the great things to enjoy.

DAVID: 

Well, I have to tell you this story. I was to show you how things do happen, and they do matter. You’ll remember this. 2005 and Katrina. I had hooked up with a band called Environmental Encroachment from Chicago, remember that? 

ANDIE: 

I do.

DAVID:

And as I was passing Center Camp, I was meeting up with people from EE and they said, did you hear about Katrina? I said, no, it’s terrible. And then we’re doing an impromptu fundraiser at the Temple, I believe he said. So he grabbed my horn. He said, all these New Orleans tunes, which I did, I knew the baseline to all of ’em, and I could sort of semi lead them. So we piled into, I think that double decker,

ANDIE: 

The Temple Bus.

DAVID: 

The Temple Bus. And they drove us up over there. And we went there and Reverend Billy was. 

ANDIE: 

Reverend Billy. My dad played keys. 

DAVID: 

Your dad played keys. And he kept talking about “St. Joan is here with us.” And she started singing Amazing Grace, and it’s my favorite line on the Playa. I was standing next to one of my musician friends, said, wow, her voice is great. It sounds a lot like Joan Baez. She says, “You idiot, it is Joan Baez and she’s five feet away from you!” So if I ever write a book about Burning Man, I think that’s the title.

ANDIE: 

That was a beautiful moment and a really good example in my mind. Of course, I’m very, very married to that particular experience and year because my husband and I now are, we have a child who’s named after Pearlington, Mississippi, and the experiences of Burners Without Borders after Katrina hit because Burners were sitting here with all of their tools and their skills and said, “Well, we could probably help,” and piled straight into their cars and drove down to the Gulf Coast and helped out. And you can still go to Bwb Camp to this day and go see all the amazing things that Burners are doing in the name of Burning Man out there in the world.

DAVID: 

The Burners Without Border was established that very day, that moment.

ANDIE: 

Spontaneously formed. And here we are.

DAVID: 

Yeah. So there’s that. There’s that positive aspect of Burning Man, of nothing else.

ANDIE: 

It seems to be a place where things like that foment.

DAVID: 

Well, the other thing too is that I remember the first time I went, and I was telling my parents about it, particularly my mom, because being an artist historian, I was just telling her there are things of modern art being done for Burning Man which are beautiful and unlike anything that is being done for modern art in the modern art world, that are intriguing, abstractly representational, emotional, and delivering impactful messages. There was one particular piece in I think it was called Together or Togetherness of these, oversized of these two figures, reaching out on their hands, and trying to touch you. They’re barely not quite touching each other. Beautiful piece. And I remember that really hit me on my first visit to Burning Man. I said, okay, there’s some interesting things going on here that I’m not seeing in the outside world.

ANDIE: 

The gallery inspires the art here. Doesn’t it?

DAVID: 

Yeah. And of course, many pieces have gone on to be presented and exhibited displayed from here, so

ANDIE: 

You love to see.

DAVID: 

Yeah. So there you go. There a lot of good stuff coming out from here and all the negative stuff. Figure it out.

ANDIE: 

Exactly.

DAVID: 

Figure it out.

ANDIE: 

It’s Burning Man. The Man Will Burn on Saturday night, whatever else happens.

DAVID: 

And that’s the other line I have. “Forget it, Jake. It’s Burning Man.”

ANDIE: 

Bingo. And with that, I will thank you so much, David, for coming by and spending an hour chatting, chewing the fat with me about this favorite thing of ours that we seem to be throwing ourselves at after year after year.

DAVID: 

Still at it.

ANDIE: 

Always great to see you out here.

DAVID: 

Well, thank you very much. And I’m glad by the way we’re ending now because I don’t have any more stories. That was it. Ya know.

ANDIE: 

I’m sure. Yeah, that’s all that’s in there in that head. I doubt that highly. But you’re still making stories. Hopefully I’ll see you again next year.

DAVID: 

Absolutely.

ANDIE: 

Alright.

DAVID: 

Alright, everybody. 

ANDIE: 

Thanks for listening, everyone.

DAVID: 

Cheers. 

STUART: 

Burning Man LIVE is a production of the non-profit Burning Man Project, made possible in part by the generous contributions of listeners like you. If the spirit moves you, why not head over to donate .burningman .org and send us a little cheddar, a little cabbage, some bacon, a few Benjamins, some moolah. We’ll definitely put it to good use, make more of these podcasts for you.

Thanks to all the unusual suspects, to our guest David Silverman, to ActionGirl Andie Grace, of course, Vav Michael Vav, Tyler Burger, DJ Toil, kbot, and Allie. Thanks also in this case to Motorbike Matt and the BRC Webcast team for graciously inviting us into their studio to make some recordings on Playa.

Thanks, Larry.

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